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      Healthcare Rethink - Episode 61

      In this episode, hosted by Brian Urban, he welcomes Chelsea King Arthur, DrPH, a renowned Healthcare Policy, Strategy, and Innovation leader. Together, they examine the intersection of digital health and population health in 2024, exploring how these disciplines merge to create more patient-centric healthcare experiences.



       

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      Brian Urban:                                           
      Yes, this is the Healthcare Rethink podcast. I'm your host, Brian Urban, and today we are getting well with Get Well. We have the Vice President of Population and Digital Health joining us today, Dr. Chelsea King Arthur. Welcome to our show.

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      Thank you for having me, Brian, excited to be here.

      Brian Urban:                                           
      This is so much fun because you and I have gotten to know each other a little bit beforehand, and we even got distracted and didn't even remember to actually start our recording.

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      Time flies when you're having fun, Brian.

      Brian Urban:                                           
      That's the way to start a podcast. So let's have our audience get to know you a little bit more here, Chelsea. So take us back before the DRPH, before the VP title here, before even being a professor as well. So how did you find your way into population health, digital health solutions, public health? How did you get into this work?

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      Yeah. So it all started as a kid right before my 16th birthday, the day before, my dad was diagnosed with cancer. And so, I came home from school and my dad set me down and told me that he had cancer. A couple of days later, he had a massive heart attack and was in the ICU for a few days. I'm the youngest of five kids. I have four older brothers, and my brothers were all away at college or doing life. And so, it was myself and my mom at home left to navigate the healthcare system, to help care for my father. And I am a sixteen-year-old kid also trying to navigate athletics and academia and figure out where I'm going next. And through that process, what I learned was, what I decided maybe just a couple months into it was, "I am going to change the way people access healthcare. It doesn't have to be this hard. It should be easy for anyone to understand what's going on, understand how to navigate things."
                                                             
      And so, that's really what got me here. It is a passion that was sparked from that moment that still burns on. Actually, when I was writing my dissertation, the only dedication in my dissertation is to my dad, who was here when I started the process but wasn't here to see me finish it. But I did all of this because it just has to be easier. And so, I think having that personal drive, that personal touch just makes me approach it in a very different way. And it also just gives me a level of passion that I love healthcare, and it just has to be different and accessible for everyone. So that's how I got here.

      Brian Urban:                                           
      Wow. I will say, we have a lot of guests that come on our show obviously that have gotten into healthcare or some facet of the ecosystem because of a personal experience, a family member.

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      Yeah.

      Brian Urban:                                           
      And not uncommon to yourself here, but the best thing is the follow through. You didn't just go in it, out of it, you didn't really stumble into it like myself.

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      Yeah.

      Brian Urban:                                           
      You followed through and you're still doing it today, and you're impacting a lot of lives in digital health. So thank you for sharing that.

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      Yeah, absolutely.

      Brian Urban:                                           
      It's lovely to have our audience be aware that you can take something of a challenge in your life and you can reposition your emotions to make it like a fuel.

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      Yeah.

      Brian Urban:                                           
      Not just a quick motivation, but a long-lasting fuel, and it seems like that's what you've done.

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      Yeah. And to know that it's a winding path, right? So I started in healthcare on the financial side. I worked for a bank that wanted to start HSA accounts. And so, I started creating HSA accounts to help some of the brokers who were in our area. And then, from there moved to the health plan space where I was really focused on Medicare Advantage, those folks who were dual or chronically ill. And so, working in that space, I've worked for two of the largest health insurers in the country in doing that. And then, just kind of bounced around and learned that I wanted to understand healthcare really intimately. And so, I spent some time in the health plan space, spent some time on the e-prescribing space, spent some time consulting contracting with CMS.
                                                             
      So it's really, for me, it was about understanding that if I'm going to make a difference, I need to understand healthcare. And there are many facets of healthcare, and so learning as many as I could to kind of work to make a difference is really what was important to me. So to all the folks who are out there, it's a winding path, right?

      Brian Urban:                                           
      Yeah.

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      If you're doing something in healthcare right now, but you're passionate about healthcare and maybe that's not what you want to be doing, go do something else. There's so many parts of healthcare, there's so many places where you can be making a difference. And it literally will take all of us to make healthcare different.

      Brian Urban:                                           
      Indeed. Amen. I love how you said that. And your background is so well-rounded. I think the old traditional view is, "Wow. You didn't know what you wanted to do, and you couldn't keep a role or you couldn't be an expert." Not true. You gain expertise now by doing a lot of things and becoming really an impact maker, I'd say a well-rounded athlete in healthcare. You need to have all of these skills to plug and play. If you're really deep in one set, that's fine.

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      Yeah.

      Brian Urban:                                           
      But that's where you're going to stay.

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      Yeah.

      Brian Urban:                                           
      So it's great to take that winding path. That's a very good example. Thank you for sharing that.

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      Yeah, absolutely. Thank you.

      Brian Urban:                                           
      So let's get into you a little bit more at Get Well. So it's safe to say you're a digital health leader these days. So how do you see the disciplines of population health and digital health merging now in 2024? We're in a brand new year, four years into I'd say a new evolution policy-wise, metric-wise, everything coming through the height of the pandemic.

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      Yeah.

      Brian Urban:                                           
      So what do you think? What's pop health and digital health looking like in '24?

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      Yeah. So I think the first thing is that healthcare is always slightly behind the trend, right? So if you think about it, it was five, seven years ago that we started to be able to make a bank transaction and see it hit on our app right away, right? We could go in, order Starbucks, do whatever we need to do, it's right there. Get out of your car, you walk in, and it's there.
                                                             
      Healthcare has lagged behind that slowly, right? We always see a little bit of lag. And I think what the pandemic did was accelerate a trend that was already happening in healthcare, which was we have to be able to meet patients exactly where they are. Some patients cannot get into a doctor's office. Some patients might just have a quick question they need answered. Some patients might just need some additional information. And while Dr. Google has been there for those patients, I think what the healthcare continuum has decided to say is, "Cool, Dr. Google. Love you, appreciate all your assistance. How can I step in and be that digital response, that place where my patients go, my members go, to access that information, quickly access my care team, have those questions answered, step away, and let them continue to live their lives?"
                                                             
      And so, what I've seen happen is we've made an evolution from a digital standpoint for healthcare. And now that we've made that evolution, what we are now also doing off the heels of the pandemic is saying, "Now we need to specialize that digital outreach. Those digital engagements needs to be specialized. I need to talk to people just like I did when I was sending them enrollment packets or talking to them in the hospital. If I'm going to digitally engage them, I need to speak to them in a way that they understand. That is readability, that is accessibility, that is correct languages, right? I cannot send people who do not speak English tons of digital information in English, because it becomes moot. It's just not something they're going to access."
                                                             
      So now we're seeing the push to make that digital health accessible, and that's population health, right? We're talking about everyone. So many people have cell phones Pew did a study a few years ago. They said that 98% of individuals have a device that can be texted. That means that right there in people's hands is an ability to engage with them, outreach to them, send them information. So I think what we have to do and what we're seeing happen is how do we make those engagements meaningful? How do we help kind of that patient traverse the thing that is the healthcare continuum, which can be a bit of a roller coaster even for people who are healthy, right? There's so much information.
                                                             
      And so, I think where we see ourselves going is digital health doesn't exist without population health. Population health is what we've been doing for a long time. We have segmented the Americans to all the buckets they could be segmented in from a healthcare perspective. Now we need to talk to them in that way digitally, and that's what we're going through doing, I believe.

      Brian Urban:                                           
      That is a very clear view. I love when someone makes something transparent, that's complex, really simple, and you just did that. So we have segmented all of the humans that we can really identify and detect inside the US in particular, in all of these different buckets. Now we've got to talk to them in the digital manner, digital modality that they prefer and that they'll engage with. And that's, I think, distinct. That isn't in line with what can be drowned with spam and scammers.

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      Right.

      Brian Urban:                                           
      And that's the other challenge of this ecosystem is it's very vulnerable to that.

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      I should have said that.

      Brian Urban:                                           
      But I want to take a step to the right here for a moment with you and recognize something that I would like to elevate. So last year, mid-year last year-ish I believe, you were recognized by Rock Health as a Top 50 Leader in Digital Health. That's a great distinction. Rock Health has a lot of thoughtful leaders that they've elevated and had stories told around and recognized. They don't just do fluff.

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      Yeah.

      Brian Urban:                                           
      So I'm very happy to have seen your name on that. We didn't discuss this before, but tell me what did that mean to you outside of your work, just personally, what did that do for you?

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      The initial reaction was absolute shock. I thought I was being spammed. I reached out to our marketing person and I said, "Hey, listen. I don't know if this is real or not." And they were like, "Yeah. No, this is totally real. This is a real thing. You were nominated. We're so excited that you won."
                                                             
      From a personal standpoint, every day in the back of my mind, I know my history. I know that I was a kid whose family experienced homelessness. I know that I was a kid who grew up with very limited things, a free lunch kid, a kid who lived in a part of town where I was bussed to the good schools, thankfully. And so, to be able to be honored for the work that I do in healthcare and the work that I do to ensure that all of the little Chelseas out there and their parents who are working through healthcare and their grandparents who are also trying to navigate have an easier path. To be honored for that work is so much larger than I think that I even sometimes recognize, right?
                                                             
      Because every day, I carry my past and I know where I came from. And so, being honored by Rock Health is a big deal for me, and it was really, really exciting. It's something that I'm immensely proud of. One of my dear colleagues and friends who works with me on the board of directors for HCH in Maryland makes fun of me because he always says, "You just don't know who you are." And I'm like, "Every day I don't know who I am." And just when he says that to me, I laugh and I kind of shrug it off. But I'm thankful for friends like him and other folks who remind me that it is a big deal. And so, it is a great honor. And so, thank you so much to the team at Rock Health. I'm excited to see the nominees for 2024 and who gets honored. It's a great organization, and so I truly appreciate it. It was a big deal for me.

      Brian Urban:                                           
      That's beautiful to hear. And an interesting thing that you mentioned there is, "for all the other Chelseas out there." I think this is important for our audience to understand. The leaders that we speak to on this podcast, I think you all tend to share a common thread. That you're serving a variety of other people, but you're doing it because you can be able to connect with other people. You see yourself in other people.

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      Yes.

      Brian Urban:                                           
      Whether it's a moment or it's part of their story or the part of their life that they're in at the moment. That right there is so unique to healthcare.

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      Yeah.

      Brian Urban:                                           
      You don't get that in retail. You don't get that in commercial industries or large commodities. You don't get that. Healthcare is so intimate. It is so based on the human condition that you can connect with. I love that you said that. I didn't want that to go unrecognized for our listeners. That was a beautiful sentiment.

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      Yeah. Thank you. And I was talking to someone yesterday along the same lines, and I said that this is why I love AI. I think AI has a place in healthcare. I think it will do things. But the person I was talking to said, and she's one of our Community Navigators, she said, "Every day, I'm slightly afraid that AI is going to replace our Community Navigators." And I gave the same sentiment, which is, "Never. Because in healthcare, digital doesn't work without intimacy. You need that interaction between people. Healthcare works because of the intimacy between people, and that will never be fully circumvented. So we always will have people who will have to show up and do work in support of other folks. And so, I think that that's so important. And you're right, I do think it's very unique to healthcare. And so, I think it's something that we continue to harness and we continue to figure out how to make those interactions efficient, but we also understand that those interactions are not going away.

      Brian Urban:                                           
      Yeah. It's just a sliver of the experience that's built for someone's entire life, healthcare journey.

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      Exactly.

      Brian Urban:                                           
      Very well said. And I'd be remiss if we didn't get deeper into Get Well right now, so let's take a moment to do that. I think patient engagement has been a part of the prowess that Get Well has had in the market, really the submarket that you serve as well. So who is Get Well today, though? And what's the next big thing? '24 looks like a very promising year across the US economically, but what are you looking at with your current lives that you serve that's going to take you to the next big leap in terms of making a contribution and impact?

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      Yeah. So I think in 2024 where we're really pushing is digital intimacy, right? It's something that we think is really important. It's about when we get that first interaction with the patient, it's about following the patient, following their journey, and understanding that a healthcare encounter is just a portion of a person's life. And while it might be a very important portion of a person's life, it's part of a journey. And wellness is part of that journey as well. And so, our passion and really our approach to 2024 and kind of going forward is, "How do we assist healthcare organizations in supporting individuals through that journey of life, right, and weaving in healthcare?"
                                                             
      And so, we were really excited that in 2023 we launched our Get Well 360 platform, which is all about engaging patients throughout that journey. As some of you may know, Get Well started about 23 years ago. It was a organization that was focused on inpatient encounters and making sure that patients had a better experience, from education to entertainment to so many things there for that patient when they were in the inpatient experience. And then, we started to branch out and to connect patients who were in the ambulatory setting or helping care teams from a digital care plan perspective. And what we've gone in and done is said, "Great. We have all of these touch points. And like so many other organizations, they have all of these touch points, all these point solutions. How do we tie it all together so that we can tell that full patient story and follow that patient through their journey of life, and interact with them when they might occasionally have that healthcare encounter as well?"
                                                             
      So we're really excited about 360. I'm super passionate about the fact that we have an entire module tied just to health equity. I was really excited when the folks came back and they were like, "We agree. This is where we need to invest some time and space in people." And so, I'm really excited that there's a whole vertical tied to health equity, tied to screening for social determinants, making sure that we are supporting birthing persons as they go through their maternity journey, and then spending a lot of time and focus on youth mental health and supporting youth, helping them build the capacity of having hope and using that hope to help them navigate their mental and behavioral health and also supporting their caregivers. So I'm excited about that work. It stated, I think Gartner released a study a couple of weeks ago, where they said that 75% of organizations are going to start relying less on their EHR. We're excited because that journey means there's other ways to interact with patients. I'm an avid user of my EHR. I know that I am abnormal.

      Brian Urban:                                           
      Yeah. Because I was going to say, I've not heard too many folks-

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      Exactly.

      Brian Urban:                                           
      ... our age generation saying, "You know what? EHR gets me out of bed in the morning."

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      Listen. I'm disappointed in myself, Brian, every single time I log in to my portal, I am absolutely disappointed because I'm like, "This experience could be so much better."

      Brian Urban:                                           
      Oh, yeah.

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      And so, we're excited about 360 and being able to help those patients on their journeys.

      Brian Urban:                                           
      I love that, because you're going so far beyond traditional medical delivery in terms of services and then also how you're connecting into an EHR. And it's funny, because EHRs were always necessary.

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      Always.

      Brian Urban:                                           
      I think the biggest component they've always missed is the information that's happening outside the physician's walls.

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      Yes.

      Brian Urban:                                           
      And directly affecting spend, utilization of course, and then sometimes lack thereof that might lead to an exacerbated condition or a hospital stay.

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      Exactly. Yes.

      Brian Urban:                                           
      So that stuff has always been missing. We could talk probably a whole 35 minutes on that stuff. But it's so funny that you said that. That's probably one of the funnier things I've heard on our little podcast.

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      It's oddly disappointing.

      Brian Urban:                                           
      Yeah.

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      Every time I log into it, I'm like, "Really? Do you not know what to do from 9:00-5:00 every day? And I was just like, "Look, here I am."

      Brian Urban:                                           
      I wish I could move this comment to the very top of our comments, but a sweet spot nonetheless that I think we've hit. So I want to ask you something. So you mentioned population health. It has been around for a while.

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      Yeah.

      Brian Urban:                                           
      It is, I'd say, a structured discipline. It's not very rigid in most cases. It's not very flexible. It's starting to be flexible with advances in technology, data exchange, and academia changing it a little bit in certain institutions, incorporating it into medical science degrees, into Ph programs, et cetera. But how are you taking population health as an approach driving next generation services for your patient engagement? We talked about the 360. Is it through that, and it's kind of setting up the vision of how digital intimacy will evolve? Is that where population health is having the best impact from what you do on a quarterly to quarterly basis, year to year?

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      Yeah. So the way we approach it is population health works very similar to creating programs, to evaluating those programs, running those programs to talk to very specific populations. If you think about the goals of a healthcare organization, they typically either want to decrease spend for those patients who might be frequent visitors to the ED or increase spend to those who might not be using services at all, right? So how do we get more folks engaged in the healthcare system so that we are ensuring that we're delivering preventive services and keeping those patients healthy?
                                                             
      And I think where we see digital care play a role in population health is that we are saying that, "I'm going to digitally outreach to these folks. You have this large population, but I'm going to talk to each of those populations differently about the same thing." Right?
                                                             
      So I have a patient population, I have some folks who we're talking engagement, we're talking about activation, we're talking about ensuring that patients are going to the right places. For my folks who are frequent visitors, I'm going to talk to them about, "Hey, can I help you get a PCP? Can we address some of your social needs to see if maybe that will tick down your ED visits? Are there other resources that can help support you?"
                                                             
      When we're talking about individuals who are not utilizing the system, "Hey, how are you doing? What's going on with you? You doing well? You haven't had a visit in a while. Would love to help you get that visit scheduled. Can I help you with scheduling that visit?"

      Brian Urban:                                           
      You're serving by reaching out.

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      Yeah. Right. So we're looking at the population in total and we're saying, "All right. What part of the population does this individual fall into? And then, how do I assist that individual who's a part of this population into engaging with the system in a way that is good for them, but also good for the system?"
                                                             
      I am not going to Pollyanna in it and say it's always about what's happening with the patient. Financial bottom line drives what happens in healthcare. It is the way that things work. It's fortunate, unfortunate. So we need patients to move in ways that help support that organizational stability and that organizational growth. It does no one any good if your largest Trauma 3 center in your city goes down, right, because they're not getting enough visits or they're getting too much strain on their ED and they're at 120% capacity all the time, right? That doesn't help anyone. So what we do as an organization is to think about, "How do we step in and support those populations in a way that also helps that organization?"

      Brian Urban:                                           
      Yeah.

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                   
      I think that really that's where we go with population health, right? It's about the population we've segmented, as we've talked about to the hilt. But then, once we've segmented, we need to dig a little deeper to that individual to make sure that that segment we've put them in is appropriate for them. And then, how do we assist them in taking the actions and engaging in the way that we need them to in the healthcare delivery system?

      Brian Urban:                                           
      Yeah. That end comment that you just made to your walkthrough for us, I think is the thing that we've been missing as a healthcare ecosystem overall, which is addressing the need. I think the funny, I don't know if it's funny, but it's funny to me, the term this closed loop referral. That has been a theme the last several years, especially with social care tech. It's funny, because that loop, I don't know if you want to close it. You want to continue to help. And it puts-

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      We want the loop to stay open. Yes. You want to continue to have that communication.

      Brian Urban:                                           
      Don't close that loop.

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      And that's one of the things that I love about the work that I get to do every day. We do not close that patient out.

      Brian Urban:                                           
      Yeah. You're all great.

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      That patient can reach back out to us at any point in time and we're able to assist them. I love our youth mental health program where we're saying to these kids, "Listen, here's your content. Here's your curriculum. But I am here and one of our Community Navigators is here for you. Come back whenever you want to." And when we've had kids who've come back months and months later and said, "Hey, I'm good, but I've got a friend. Can I enroll my friend? How do I get my friend on this program? She's having a tough time. Her boyfriend just broke up with her. I just want her to get some of this content."
                                                             
      Leave the lines open so that we can support people, because life is a journey. Healthcare encounters are a blip in that journey. But if we want to be seen as meaningful partners in an individual's life so that they turn to us when they need us instead of flying to the ED or doing other things, you have to leave that line of communication open. And that's what I'm excited about what we do with 360, what we do with our programs. And that, to me, is actual population health.

      Brian Urban:                                           
      Oh, man. That was so solid. We are in the church of Deacon or Reverend Dr. Chelsea King Arthur, right there. You couldn't say it better, because I've actually never shared that thought, was like, "Why the heck are we closing these things?" And it's similar to, I think, in the world of substance abuse disorder and addiction.

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      Yeah.

      Brian Urban:                                           
      People think you go through an AAA program, "Oh, you graduated." No, no, no. This is a life journey.

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      Yeah.

      Brian Urban:                                           
      Recovery doesn't mean recovered. It's a daily process. It's a long haul.

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      You're in recovery. It's a daily, yes, exactly.

      Brian Urban:                                           
      Yeah. You know what it is.

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      My high school coach from volleyball, I was a volleyball player in high school and in college, he is a recovering alcoholic. And every day he posts, "See you tomorrow, 24 more," right? Every day. Every day is a 24-hour journey for him to stay sober.

      Brian Urban:                                           
      Yeah.

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      And so, it resonates, right? And it should resonate for us in healthcare. It's not a, "I had my encounter, I'm done."

      Brian Urban:                                           
      Yeah.

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      No.

      Brian Urban:                                           
      It can't be outcome-based. It's journey.

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      It can't be outcome based. It's journey based.

      Brian Urban:                                           
      Yes.

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      And so, we have to follow individuals through that journey and be there to support them throughout it.

      Brian Urban:                                           
      Oh, man. This is going to be like chapter four, chapter five of your book, the first one I think that will come out from you, just my prediction. But looking at predictions, let's look a little bit further than '24, '25, '26. Let's go maybe five years out here. What you are doing is going to continue to evolve and be challenged with unforeseen events and variable forces in the ecosystem here and economy. So with that noted, utopic vision, what's the greatest contribution you think Get Well will make to the healthcare ecosystem, the lives you serve five plus years from now? What's that long-range beautiful vision look like?

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      So I am hopeful that our ability to engage with patients at various stops along their healthcare journey yields healthy children becoming adults. And I say this because we have a heavy presence in children's hospitals where we're engaging with those parents and kids. We have a youth mental health program that is tied to addressing the capacity to build hope for children. We have a program that's tied to maternal health and helping birthing persons through that process. So we're starting in places where the people that we're interacting with are little, they're young, right? We're helping the moms and then helping them with getting preventive care for the kids, their youth visits, or helping those youth navigate mental and behavioral health, social pressures, social stigmas, social media. Or we're helping families who are accessing care.
                                                             
      What I think about all the time is we are laying the foundation for showing individuals how interactions with healthcare systems and payers can be, and how they can support you throughout. And laying that foundation to say, "These folks are a part of my life and it's not a bad thing, and I can reach out to them." And so, I'm hopeful.
                                                             
      It's a long way of saying that I'm hopeful that the work we're doing today will lay a foundation that will breed a digital health ecosystem that is not going to be sidelined by new buzzwords or new things happening versus just saying that, "No. We just need to do what has been done by the digital trends that were set previously, which is build the relationship, build the loyalty, build the sense of, 'This organization is here for me.' And five years down the road, I'm still able to pick up that phone, send that text message and say, "Hey, I've got a quick question for you. Do you have any educational information on, 'I think my toddler is running a fever'?" Right? And to build that relationship. Just like today, some of us who are Amazon users, we built those relationships a while ago, and when we were in need in the pandemic, we would feel like, "Amazon is my place to go for everything." Right?

      Brian Urban:                                           
      Yeah. Yeah.

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      Because they had shown me, they have shown us that they could be reliable. And I'm hopeful that this foundation we're laying says to folks, "This is a reliable form of engaging with my healthcare provider or my healthcare payer, and I'm going to continue to use this format to reach out, to ask questions, to engage and be a part of it." So that's what I'm hopeful for.
                                                             
      The other thing I'm super hopeful for, and this is more of an industry thing and not tied to what I do. Well, it is tied to what I do on a daily basis. We cannot continue to buzzword whole person care.

      Brian Urban:                                           
      Yeah.

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      We cannot continue to buzzword equity. If we continue to do that, and God forbid we experience another pandemic-like event, we will once again see Black, brown, under-resourced communities, suffer in ways that we cannot continue to see them suffer. We have got to throw money behind equity. We have got to throw money behind whole person care and not buzzword them. That money has to be there. The regulations have to be there. The incentives have to be there.
                                                             
      And we're starting to see trends that maybe it is going to stick. But without truly supporting it, we'll continue to have pockets of our population that are underserved and sick and do not trust the healthcare system, which impacts all of us. And we've got to make a difference there. And so, I hope in five years, this trend of social determinants, understanding them, trying to support them, this trend of equity, this trend of ensuring that I'm giving people what they need to get us all to the same starting blocks. I'm hopeful that it's laying a foundation that in five years will show that it just becomes a part of how we build things: how we build plans, how we build networks, how we build engagement platforms, that it just becomes natural to us. And so, that's what I'm hopeful for.

      Brian Urban:                                           
      Could not have asked for a better way to not only start my day personally, but to end this beautiful podcast. Dr. Chelsea King Arthur, I couldn't agree with you more. I hope that we get away from the patient profit model and into the person model.

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      Love it.

      Brian Urban:                                           
      And I think if we have leaders like yourself, and we keep having great voices on our show and other shows, and in policy in Capitol Hill, we'll get there, but we have to keep pushing together.

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      Yep.

      Brian Urban:                                           
      I loved our time today.

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      Likewise.

      Brian Urban:                                           
      I feel a follow-up coming on, big time. So thank you so much, Dr. Chelsea King Arthur, for joining our show today.

      Dr. Chelsea Kin:                                    
      Thank you, Brian. I really appreciate it.

      Brian Urban:                                           
      And for more exciting insights and excerpts, please visit us at finthrive.com.

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